Shima Oliaee on reimagining producer's roles
Hey y'all,
I bet many of you reading this are preparing for final exams, writing papers, or otherwise trying to stagger through the finish line of this year. Years ago, when I was making a weekly version of this newsletter, I would put together digital finals care packages for subscribers.
Whether you’re studying for exams, or are counting the days until you have time off from work, here are some things that have helped me in the past. Most of them are free or under $5!
Cold call a friend to check in and let them know you’re thinking of them. If being on the phone makes you anxious, send a postcard! I have been on the receiving end of this and it really makes me feel loved.
Print copies of favorite photos (it costs like 50 cents at places like Walgreens and CVS!) to put up around the house.
During early quarantine I discovered that corny YouTube dance workouts really do the trick when it comes to endorphins and stress.
Stream your favorite album from when you were 10 years old. It’s kind of terrifying that I still know all the words to Avril Lavigne’s first album. I’m very punk rock.
Wander around your local library. Paging through cookbooks and gardening guides always calms me. It’s also fun to look at the children’s books and remember old favorites.
I’ve got some real treats for y’all in this very newsletter, too. There’s an interview with reporter/producer/all around talent Shima Oliaee. She has a new series out with ESPN’s 30 for 30 on Iranian women who are fighting for the right to watch soccer. It’s part memoir, part sports drama. You’ve gotta listen. Plus, Shima gave me a behind-the-scenes look at the making of the WNYC podcast Dolly Parton’s America.
And!! I am excited to share an interview with lawyer (and journalist) Jordan Fletcher on how to read and understand employment contracts before you sign them. Obviously this interview is not legal advice, though you can totally hire Jordan.
Okay, let’s get into it.
Alice: Tell me about what you’re working on right now!
Shima: I have four miniseries in the pipeline right now. The first [premiered] at ESPN 30 for 30 on December 8, 2022, called Pink Card. I think it’s the best and hardest thing I’ve ever made. I’m deeply appreciative [of] my extraordinary production team: Homa Sarabi, Sayre Quevedo, Marisa Bravo, Ramtin Arablouei, and Nesa Azadikhah. Megan Rapinoe also joined in to support!
My next series will come out in the fall of 2023, which I’m also very excited about. There are two other projects I’ve reported –– one almost in its entirety. At this time, every skill I learned the past six years, running a podcast company, reporting, producing, editing, sound designing, pitching –– it all culminated for this time. I make mistakes, but I try to dust myself off, learn more, and improve quickly. I just launched my own company, Shirazad Productions. The name is a play on Scheherazade, the protagonist in 1001 Nights. She tells stories in order to save both herself and the lives of the women who will come after her. The premise is that a sultan, after being betrayed by the woman he loves, decides he will marry a virgin each night and behead her by morning. Scheherazade offers herself up, and eventually through her stories, she reforms even the sultan himself.
I love that Octavia Butler quote, “I began writing about power because I had so little.” I started an audio company reporting stories on power because I had so little. Stories keep us alive when we are losing hope. On a side note, my mom pointed out to me that “shir-azad” in farsi translates literally to “free the lion.” That was a happy accident. For each series, I’m working with people who are a dream to collaborate with. This is also my opportunity to create a new culture in how we work in audio, even if it's one project at a time.
Classifieds
Internships
Intern, Performance Today, APMG ($18.00/hr)
Intern, Marketplace Tech, APMG ($18.00/hr)
Intern (Part-time), Performance Today, APMG ($18.00/hr)
Spring Intern, Proximity Media, (No pay information shared)
Associate/Assistant Producer
Associate Producer, (Part-time), The California Report, KQED (No pay information shared)
Associate Producer, (Part-time), Southern California Public Radio, APMG ($26.76/hr)
Assistant Producer, AirTalk with Larry Mantle, APMG ($23.90/hr)
Associate Producer, Branded Podcasts, Audacy (No pay information included)
Associate Producer, News and Programming, WBUR ($67,958/yr minimum)
Other jobs and opportunities:
Statewide Education Reporter, Indiana Public Broadcasting, Corporation for Public Broadcasting ($50,000/yr)
Apply for the Next Generation Radio Project. And watch this video for extra tips on applying.
Operations and Executive Assistant, Slate ($48,000 - $55,000/yr).
Snap Judgement is hiring story scouts for their spinoff show Spooked ($1,500/month retainer, plus bonuses for successful pitches).
If you are hiring interns, fellows or other entry level positions, send your job postings and rates to startingout [at] transom [dot] org and I’ll list them in the next issue. Please note that Starting Out features only paid opportunities.
Resources
Many of you have requested a resource on understanding contracts. And I thought that was an excellent idea. I’m no expert on contract law, so I called on attorney Jordan Fletcher to get the basics on contracts.
Jordan: I am the owner of Fletcher Law PLLC, which is a law firm based in New York City. I do a mix of intellectual property (“IP”) and commercial counseling for clients in creative, media, tech, and arts fields. That includes trademarks, copyrights, licensing and also IP and business disputes.
I often work as an outside general counsel for creative businesses, which means helping folks organize and run their businesses, and drafting and negotiating their contracts.
Alice: Can you run me through the anatomy of a contract? When someone gets a contract for a freelance gig what should they expect to see?
JF: There are many different kinds of contracts in the world, so I’ll limit this question to what you might see in an independent contractor agreement for creative services. (And, of course, big lawyer caveat: this isn’t legal advice! Find a lawyer if you have questions about your own situation!)
I should also say that there are well-written and not-so-well-written contracts out there. Just because an agreement should have a certain provision in it, doesn’t mean it actually does, or doesn’t mean that the terms are clearly spelled out. I’m going to talk about the things you’ll typically see in a contract that is sufficient, but still relatively simple.
At the very top, there's usually a paragraph that tells who the parties to the contract are, and the date the contract begins. You’ll want to make sure that information is all correct, and, for example, if you’re working through an LLC as opposed to as an individual, the contract should identify the right counterparty. After that, there may be some paragraphs called recitals, which often start with the word “whereas.” They give context and background for the contract. Strictly speaking, though, they’re usually not binding obligations.
The meat of the contract will often begin with a section on services and deliverables, which is basically, “What's the scope of the engagement, what is being expected of you?” There may be a timeline for producing deliverables. There may be provisions around client acceptance and review of the deliverables, whether revisions are going to be requested and how many rounds of changes there will be. Sometimes, the services and deliverables will be defined in a separate exhibit or schedule. Regardless, my main suggestion is to be clear about the scope of the agreement, know exactly what is being asked of you, and know whether you feel comfortable providing the specified services, and whether it all makes sense to you.
There should be another section on fees and expenses. How much will you be paid? What's the payment schedule? [Note: last month’s newsletter has more on this topic!] Will payments be made upfront? (Down payments are always a good thing!) Will the payments be after delivery? With some contracts, it could be 30 or 60 days after delivery.
There should hopefully be a section on the term of the agreement, which is how long the contract lasts, and there may also be provisions about termination, meaning can you get out of the deal early, and if so, how and what are the consequences? Ideally, it should lay out how much the service provider will be owed if the client terminates early, especially if work has already begun. Those are important things to consider.
Another key section of the agreement concerns ownership of the work product or the intellectual property that goes into the work product. Typically, this is either going to be a license arrangement or else it will be work for hire. A license agreement means that the contractor retains ownership of the intellectual property, and they're allowing the client to use that IP for some period of time. If it's a license, there should be a defined scope to the license, meaning what property is being licensed, for how long, in what geographical region, and in what kinds of media, and whether the license is exclusive to the client (meaning the client is the only one with those rights to use the IP) or nonexclusive (meaning the contractor is free to license the IP to others).
Alternatively, many contractor agreements are framed as “work for hire” agreements, which means that all rights to the IP are being transferred to the client. In a contractor agreement, the contract must use the magic words “work for hire” or “assignment” — basically the agreement has to specifically say that the IP is being transferred from the contractor to the client for the IP to be transferred. Technically, work-for-hire only applies to certain kinds of work product made for certain purposes, which is why well-written contracts often use the terms “work-for-hire” and “assignment” together.
It's not necessarily bad to do work for hire agreements. Many clients are probably going to want or insist on work for hire, but again, as someone running a creative business, you want to know what you are providing and what you will retain in terms of rights to the content. And, if possible, you can price your services accordingly. Also, it’s great if you can get the client to agree in writing that the IP transfer is contingent on payment in full… that way, if there’s any problem with payment (it happens!), you can argue that the client isn’t permitted to use any of your work product until you get paid.
Moving on, there may be a section on credit (how you will be credited for your work, if at all), and perhaps also confidentiality terms depending on what the nature of the arrangement is and the nature of the client. There will probably also be a section probably called representations and warranties and indemnification. That sounds like a lot of legalese, but it's actually very important from a risk perspective. What's going on in there is the parties are making specific commitments to each other. And the result of those commitments being violated is that the breaching party will have to cover the other side's damages and legal fees if a third party comes and makes a claim against the other side.
A simple example would be if the service provider says that the intellectual property they're providing is original to them or fully licensed. The client will make you represent that that content does not infringe anyone else's intellectual property rights, that you didn't incorporate content from someone without permission. And if a third party comes out of the woodwork and says to the client, “Hey, that's mine,” you, the service provider, will be liable for all the damages and liable to pay for all the attorney's fees that flow from it. So there's a lot of risk shifting that ends up in the reps and warranties and indemnification clauses. And again, the main thing is, be clear about what you are committing to, especially around the originality of content that's being delivered. The promises can be really thin, or there can be a lot that gets stuffed in there. It depends on the context, but you just want to be really clear about what you're getting yourself into and make absolutely sure you can commit to it, and that it feels reasonable for you to cover that risk. And finally, there will be a section at the end that contains a bunch of miscellaneous provisions. These will include a range of interpretive provisions saying how the agreement should be interpreted, what state’s law governs, how to handle disputes if they arise, whether the contract can be enforced in court or must be submitted to arbitration, and where that must occur.
AW: What are the legal differences between contractors and employees?
JF: You may be aware there's a big shift these days to try to push as many things towards contractor relationships versus employment relationships. Part of that is the expense of health insurance and benefits, but part of that is that employees under federal law, and generally state law, get a whole host of protections that contractors do not get by default automatically, that can't be waived. Those are things like entitlement to minimum wage and overtime, protection against discrimination, protection against retaliation in the workspace, entitlements to be paid within a certain time and in a certain manner. And those are things that employees automatically get and that contractors, generally speaking, don't get.
AW: Wait contractors aren't entitled to minimum wage?
JF: Nope. You're entitled to the fee as stated in the contract. I will caveat that in a second, but generally, no, minimum wage and overtime for more than 40 hours a week is required by state and federal law for employees for an employment relationship. The big takeaway is that employees are entitled to a number of protections that independent contractors typically don't get. There are some local laws that have changed that. In New York City, for example, there's something called the Freelance Isn't Free Act, which gives some additional protection to contractors that aren't available elsewhere, but even that is more limited than an employee’s rights under employment laws.
The other thing I'll say though is there are a lot of agreements where the parties agree that they're independent contractors, but under the law that does not automatically make them an independent contractor. It’s actually a very fact specific thing based on the day-to-day reality of the relationship. There’s a huge area of law –– and there are many disputes that end up in court –– that deals with whether someone is an employee entitled to minimum wage and overtime, or a contractor. Usually those people all had quote-unquote “contractor agreements,” but in fact, the courts have held that they were employees and they were entitled to a variety of legal benefits.
AW: What are red flags people should look out for when reading their contracts?
JF: You know, it's hard to talk about red flags without context, and without understanding what the power dynamic is between the parties. But I think the key is just to make sure that you understand the deal that you're signing up for and to go in with your eyes open.
As a person starting out, you may not feel like you have much leverage in the negotiation process. And you don't have to feel bad about that. That's kind of the reality of starting out in a new field, needing work, and trying to get your foot in the door. The main thing is to see each new opportunity as a chance to make a different choice about how you want to run your business.
That said, I think there are some important provisions that you should understand. What is the nature of the services you're being asked to provide? What are the specific deliverables you're being asked to provide? What is the timeline? You want to understand how much and when you're getting paid, and terms that would affect how you get paid. Like, can the client object to certain things and then you don't get a final payment until you fix X, Y, or Z? And what if there’s a disagreement over acceptance of the final product?
You want to understand the IP rights, understand what you're gonna own or not own at the end of the day. As I mentioned above, when I'm writing contracts for clients who have even minimal leverage, I will often try to insert language that says “transfer of IP rights is contingent upon prior payment.” It's an awesome thing to have in there in a typical work-for-hire agreement, especially given how many creatives I meet who are having trouble getting paid. Basically it means that if you've delivered the IP and three months later the client hasn't paid you, then the IP ownership rights actually haven't transferred. Now you don't just have a payment dispute, you have potential copyright infringement claims on your hands.
Another note about IP: in an employer/employee relationship, the IP automatically gets transferred to the employer, assuming that the work is within the scope of whatever the employment is. If it’s completely outside of the scope and you’re not using the employer’s tools to create it, then you're probably not transferring rights to your employer. (Though you always need to read your employment agreement to know for sure.)
What that means is that, for example, if you're a line producer for a show, and you've got an employment agreement with the show, it's likely that any pitches that you're pitching to the show, including the ideas and any work product created that relates to those pitches, could belong to the show. The simplest thing to do in this situation is to get a written consent from the client or the employer that confirms that if a project doesn’t get produced by the employer, you can take the idea and the work product elsewhere.
AW: How do you know when an issue with a contract is worth taking to a lawyer?
JF: So that's a hard question to answer. I am a lawyer, and I will be the first to tell you that lawyers can be expensive. Big questions to consider are: How much is this worth to you? How much risk are you willing to take on? How much can you afford to spend on legal? And how much can you afford to lose by signing an agreement that you didn't understand, or that didn’t cover everything it should have?
It's not a decision that's easily made for everyone. In a perfect world, you’d have a lawyer look at everything before you sign it… but that’s not most folks’ reality. There are legal services organizations and nonprofits and bar association helplines that will give you free consultations, so there are places you can go to get a bit of free-ish legal advice. At a minimum, you can use those services to educate yourself and figure out whether you really should be hiring a lawyer.
One thing I will say, though: when you find yourself with a lawsuit or even a potential lawsuit on your hands, that’s a moment when you should definitely be speaking with a lawyer. And not just any lawyer… find someone who regularly handles the kind of dispute you’re facing.
AW: You mentioned leverage earlier, when do you know that you have leverage?
JF: Leverage is a feeling and it's an appearance. It's not always a fact. If you're willing to walk away from a deal, then you've got leverage. The key is to know what you're willing to accept; to be willing to walk if you're being pushed to go beyond your bottom line.
People bluff leverage all the time. It’s kind of like playing poker. And then there are also people who have been in an industry for 20 years and they don't know they could ask for more… or simply don’t feel comfortable making the ask.
So I think the answer is: it might feel scary to ask for more. But you can usually ask for anything if you’re polite about it. And the more you do it, the more confident you will become.
I would start out by taking some time to identify for yourself what would be amazing, like what's pie in the sky for you. And then consider what a great deal would look like; then a good deal; then what's a bad deal, but you'll still take it. And finally, identify your line in the sand: at what point do you say, “Actually, I would rather go do something else with my time?” And, of course, it helps a lot to have some context: what prices and terms are other people getting for similar deals? If the market doesn’t align with what you’re looking for, maybe your expectations are off, but also maybe you’re playing in the wrong sandbox.
In terms of approaching the negotiation, often, if it’s a situation where the other side has –– or is acting as if they have –– more leverage, a good strategy can be to start by asking for clarification around things that you don't understand, or that don't necessarily make sense to you given the context of a deal. Clarifications can be used to identify negotiating points in a less aggressive manner than pounding your fist on the table and making demands. And if the other side comes back with a response that doesn’t make sense, you can politely point out why it doesn’t make sense and why the thing you want makes more sense.
At the same time, don't be attached to the other side saying yes to everything, or frankly, even anything. There are some counterparties, especially big ones, who will view their deal terms as essentially non-negotiable. But there are also some counterparties who will say everything is non-negotiable and act offended or annoyed that you're even imagining that you could ask for more. Often that’s just a bluff, or it’s someone who doesn’t feel like taking the time to consider your request. But actually there may be points of flexibility in small ways so that you can get more of what you need, even around the edges. And if you can make a negotiation about more than just money –– since money is often a stumbling block –– you may be able to get some of your non-monetary needs met, even if the numbers don’t change.
Finally, don’t be afraid to stick to your bottom line. At the end of the day, no one benefits from you feeling resentful or taken advantage of just because you've agreed to give more than you feel comfortable giving. There are plenty of people who will just suck it up because they feel like they've got no choice, but at some point you will hopefully decide that you have other choices.
Shima recommends
Anything by James Kim, Eleanor Kagan, BA Parker, Anayansi Diaz-Cortes, Eleanor McDowell, Alan Hall, Sayre Quevedo and Ariana Martinez.
I still love Fresh Air.
The Paris Review podcast.
Forever is a Long Time. I was shocked and moved by the honesty.
I love these episodes of Heavyweight.
The Lolita Podcast stuck with me for a long time.